Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Click Sinking Analog Output to GS2 Sinking Analog Input.....How does that happen?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Click Sinking Analog Output to GS2 Sinking Analog Input.....How does that happen?

    I'm trying to control a GS2 via analog speed reference. I'm scaling 0-60Hz to 4-20mA out of the Click Koyo to the analog input of the GS2. When I put a meter in series to check the amperage to see if it matches what the output status states is current mA level, I get nothing. When I put it on the 10VDC output of the drive (internally supplied) which is the terminal adjacent to the Analog Input on the drive, there's my current reference. So I believe I have a sinking output to a sinking input. How do I make this work? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

  • Do-more PE
    replied
    Locking this thread since the OP has an answer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tinker
    replied
    Originally posted by Alexandru View Post
    i donít believe what you say. You have no authority to make claims and there is no one else to support them.
    No one?

    Originally posted by Do-more PE View Post
    You will need a signal conditioner such as a FC-33. http://www.automationdirect.com/pn/FC-33
    note that Do-more PE did not say the OP had made a wiring error, he said one would NEED a signal conditioner.
    I then suggested another option was the current output add on module for the CLICK, which is "normal", not weird like the built in outputs

    Originally posted by Alexandru View Post
    I care to understand what was the issue.
    Whether YOU believe it or not, the issue is that THE CLICK BUILT IN OUTPUT IS WIERD. Fortunately the original poster did not waste a lot of time not believing the facts, but rather implemented one recommended solution and got the system working. I don't know you won't let this go, I already said your points would be valid for a "normal" output, but the CLICK's built in current outputs are not "normal" and this thread was about the CLICK built in current output.

    https://xkcd.com/386/

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Nash
    replied
    Originally posted by Alexandru View Post
    ...
    So all these are facts. I donít care if an issue is fixed. I care to understand what was the issue. In general, I want to see the world I live in safer rather than quick-fixed. So far there is no answer to the question.
    I suspect the OP is happy to have his system working and won't be trying things that no longer matter so much to him.

    I also like to know why something doesn't work that probably ought to. It was nice to know that he got his system working.

    The Click appears to have a sinking output and the VFD has a sinking input. You probably could make it work for single channel, but the first guy that comes along and makes a wiring change will probably break it. The choice of the sinking output on the Click is unfortunate (unless you are in the business of selling isolators too.)

    A nice explanation here: https://api-usa.com/appnotes/api_sink-source.pdf

    Leave a comment:


  • Alexandru
    replied
    You are the only person who maintains this. You have already said it so many times. Spreading a rumour doesnít make it true, doesnít matter how many times you say it. Please stop embarrassing yourself repeatedly and let someone who may have something else to say- even in support to your allegations.

    i donít believe what you say. You have no authority to make claims and there is no one else to support them. Accept the facts and contribute if you can, but not with unsubstantiated rumours.

    ĎThis is an issue that seems resolved with a fix that only raises more questions. And I donít want to have your explanations, want to hear from the initiator. I thought I made that much clear already.

    The reason something is fishy is simple:
    1. The check the initiator posted is wrong. Once he wrongly checks the output of the plc analog port, twice he further appears to check a voltage output with the ammeter (on the drive output). He offers no further confirmation nor he negates the wrong done.
    2. I have offered a solid way to check the hardware. Iím not talking about silly suppositions, but a fail-safe method to check either the plc or the drive side. Would the initiator cared to check the hardware, then at least we would all know the results. So far, we know nothing.
    3. He comes back to say that using a conditioner fixed the issue. I can accept that, however any plc electrician or plc technician could confirm that the conditioner should not be the solution here. I checked the drive manual and it doesnít recommend the use of a conditioner. I donít think the plc output is made that it requires the use of another 100$ device per port, in order to work. In fact I am sure this is not the case.

    So all these are facts. I donít care if an issue is fixed. I care to understand what was the issue. In general, I want to see the world I live in safer rather than quick-fixed. So far there is no answer to the question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tinker
    replied
    Originally posted by Alexandru View Post
    Are you sure it wonít work if you just removed the conditioner and connected directly the plc to drive? We like to clear the things, rather than just claim a fix.
    It has been clear for a long time, in fact, it is in the title of this thread, "Click Sinking Analog Output" the built in current outputs on a CLICK are weird. While your comments would be relevant to a conventional sourcing current output, that is not what this thread is about, it is about the weird CLICK output which can not drive a GS2 directly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alexandru
    replied
    Good to know.
    i find it peculiar that the plc output can not drive the analog interface of the VFD.
    The signal conditioner youíre using is essentially an analog supply similar in any way to the analog plc output. Fact that it works with the conditioner but it doesnít work in direct connection between plc and drive says that something is not right.

    Im arguing it on the basis that the vfd doesnít require a signal conditioner to work, nor the plc output.

    That you managed to get it going, is good. Are you sure it wonít work if you just removed the conditioner and connected directly the plc to drive? We like to clear the things, rather than just claim a fix.

    Leave a comment:


  • esp400
    replied
    Just following up. Bought the FC-33 and everything works as expected. Followed calibration procedure in the FC-33 and the scaled output out of the PLC is pretty close to actual as measured when interrupting the circuit with an ammeter to the drive; Within .2mA. Creates a slight difference in the Hz called out by the PLC (thats what I'm scaling in) but other than that, it's solid.
    Last edited by esp400; 04-12-2019, 07:32 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alexandru
    replied
    lets hear it from the initiator.
    I have sent a clear procedure to check the hardware.
    the only thing im really concerned is that there could be a conflicting config for analog speed reference, which prevents motion and yet it doesn't post an error on the drive. is a long call though, but worth making if hardware testing (as recommended) fails.
    to clear this as well, I would call support just to make sure that the drive config is ok. best do it after the hardware is all set.
    I would actually start the troubleshooting with a drive reset.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tinker
    replied
    ON the GS2 the "Load negative connection" is a common connection shared with the analog output, while if one was not suing the analog output, it might be possible to use it as the current input connected to the CLICKs weird sinking output, it certainly would not be the proper procedure, and I would not recommend trying it for risk of damaging the drive.

    As I've written a few time already, the CLICK's built in (on the brick) analog current output are WIERD.

    Also 4-20mA current outputs are by definition current limited, they (should) be able to drive a short circuit just fine, in fact too high of loop resistance can be a problem.
    On the other hand a current input is probably not current limited since it expects a controlled current from the source, so connecting a power supply directly to current input might be bad, though it might have enough resistance to avoid destruction. By power supply I mean high current 24V, the I suspect the GS2's 10V is current limited (rated 10mA max load) so I wouldn't be too worried about it.

    But, the original poster's connection would not have worked in any case (because the CLICK is weird) so we shouldn't assume he damaged something just because it doesn't work.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alexandru
    replied
    I apologize I didnít notice earlier.
    The way you check the plc output is not correct.
    By connecting an ammeter between analog out and analog com, you have created a short-circuit.
    The ammeter can be interfaced series between the load negative connection and the analog com. It also works between analog out and load positive.
    What you need to do in order to check the plc analog port is to use a load resistor. Please visit my post on ď clearing the hardwareĒ

    you canít have a current reading on a 0-10vdc output of the drive, because the drive outputs voltage. More concerning is that you state you have a current reading, meaning that you have shortened the analog voltage out of the drive.

    The check that you have done both on plc output and drive output could have damaged both devices because you used the low resistance of the ammeter to effectively short-circuit each output. Remember to use the load resistance next time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alexandru
    replied
    There is nothing wrong with the plc analog outputs. The drive should work on direct connection to plc. If it doesnít work, is either due to wrong programming, wrong connection or a hardware fault which is not signalled. My guess is that there is nothing wrong with the hardware.

    The 3k resistance value is mentioned in the drive manual. Wether a smaller resistance would be more appropriate or not, is the responsibility of the one doing the troubleshooting. I believe that for troubleshooting purposes, 3k is alright. It will produce enough correct readings to get the motion going and the signal checked..

    I think no one shoyld should get smart with weird assumptions about the functioning of plc outputs. Such allegations are unfair to start with, and turn the attention from troubleshooting an issue which could as well be a simple programming misunderstanding or configuring a drive. If the issue is a hardware glitch, it would be appropriate to hear about it in detail and not in unsubstantiated gossip.

    Lets be honest in our opinions and refrain from spreading misleading rumours.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tinker
    replied
    Originally posted by Alexandru View Post
    You donít need a signal conditioner or isolator. The purpose of such a device is to allow for example more receivers to be connected to the same analog signal supply. Therefore, the analog signal needs split and each circuit may need isolation to prevent interference. Not your case.

    What you need is to understand the nature of the fault. You have a fault in your doing. Whether is your fault or a fault in hardware, is not clear now.


    1.1. Connect a 3k resistor to analog out port. Connect an ammeter between the other end of the resistor and the analog com port.
    ( you could also use a voltmeter connected parallel with resistor, while resistor is connected between analog port and analog com)
    1.2. Program the plc to output different analog values. Check the ammeter readings. If everything is fine, then the plc is clear.
    As I wrote before, the CLICK built in (on the brick) analog current outputs are weird, your procedure WILL show that the PLC is at "fault" (but it is really more "weird" that "faulty") Also 24V / 3K ohms is only 8mA so one wouldn't get correct readings via your procedure even with a conventional sourcing output.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alexandru
    replied
    You donít need a signal conditioner or isolator. The purpose of such a device is to allow for example more receivers to be connected to the same analog signal supply. Therefore, the analog signal needs split and each circuit may need isolation to prevent interference. Not your case.

    What you need is to understand the nature of the fault. You have a fault in your doing. Whether is your fault or a fault in hardware, is not clear now.

    Letís clear the hardware
    1. Plc side
    1.1. Connect a 3k resistor to analog out port. Connect an ammeter between the other end of the resistor and the analog com port.
    ( you could also use a voltmeter connected parallel with resistor, while resistor is connected between analog port and analog com)
    1.2. Program the plc to output different analog values. Check the ammeter readings. If everything is fine, then the plc is clear.
    2. Drive side
    2.1. Configure the drive to accept speed reference from external potentiometer.
    2.2. Connect a 3k potentiometer between AI+, AI and AC
    2.3. Check on drive display the frequency change over frequency range. If everything is fine, the drive is clear.

    I will risk an opinion, saying that you wonít clear the hardware. Main reason being an inconsistent configuration of the drive. Please reset the drive, reconfigure as required and if still doesnít work, I would call support. It is possible that another drive parameter is not configured to allow motion with external analog reference.

    Leave a comment:


  • esp400
    replied
    Good to know. I'll get the FC-33 ordered. Thank you!

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X