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  • Todd Dice
    replied
    Originally posted by ControlsGuy View Post

    At the risk of INCREASING the UI interaction to write an edit, we could have Test Mode like AB. I find though, that the vast majority of writes get kept, so optimizing that path is better than optimizing the path where tested edits get reverted (80/20 rule, or in this case 97/3 rule). I like the way you do it.
    Ack! I dislike A-B's "Test Edits," as it adds more mouse clicks just so I can move onto editing another rung.

    So, how strong is BobO's tightrope?

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  • ControlsGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by TheGreatMarklar View Post
    I frequently will make changes, push them to the PLC to see how the code works, and if I don't like it or it doesn't work, read from disk rather than trying to manually undo all of it. Please do not auto-save to disk on Write to PLC. Or make it an option for those who want it.
    At the risk of INCREASING the UI interaction to write an edit, we could have Test Mode like AB. I find though, that the vast majority of writes get kept, so optimizing that path is better than optimizing the path where tested edits get reverted (80/20 rule, or in this case 97/3 rule). I like the way you do it.

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  • BobO
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Nash View Post
    So BobO, when are we going to get "god mode" and a secret level?
    Creature comforts and workflow are our current area of focus, and will remain so until we feel like we've put a reasonable space between ourselves and 'quirky'.

    I don't envision some overreaching expert mode vs noob handholding mode, as much as just trying to be more common sense about some stuff and providing options for the more controversial things. It's fine to be different, but it isn't fine for those differences to be distracting. Our goal is to get y'all back focused on solving problems instead of frustrated with tools.

    We have a number of hardware launches over the coming months, so each release will roll out some improvements.

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  • Mike Nash
    replied
    Originally posted by ControlsGuy View Post

    I don't think I'd want that. I do usually do both at the same time, but two buttons in parallel doesn't seem overly burdensome and I like having the choice. Maybe force an accept, if you do a disk or PLC write, so at least it's not three.
    This is why I like MY toolbar arrangement - Accept Save Write are in that order next to each other. But honestly, F8 for accept is so automatic I am thrilled it doesn't do harm when I am in Rockwell software! Some of the combo key shortcuts are too extreme for me as I can't reach them easily, especially wrong-handed (one hand is busy doing something important like holding my laptop.)

    I don't mind Edit Mode so much as that too many Escape keys drops me out of it, which I hate.

    So BobO, when are we going to get "god mode" and a secret level?



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  • TheGreatMarklar
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeN View Post

    I think that should be the case. I cant think of any time I would ever want a program in the PLC that I didn't want saved to disk. If I just uploaded to PLC, whatever I uploaded needs to be saved so just do it automatically.
    I frequently will make changes, push them to the PLC to see how the code works, and if I don't like it or it doesn't work, read from disk rather than trying to manually undo all of it. Please do not auto-save to disk on Write to PLC. Or make it an option for those who want it.


    Other topics:
    1) No more Edit mode, please.
    2) Short math strings in relational contacts would be helpful. No parenthesis, basic math only. I hate having a whole MATH box for D3 = D1*2 just so I can do D3 > D2 somewhere.
    3) 2.5 is good. The new connect/link facility is great, makes it a lot easier to figure out what PLC I'm connecting to when there are several on a network.
    4) Please make it so I can import settings from the previous version when upgrading.
    5) I like the additional functions of the Find command/box, but it is frustrating that, when using the basic Ctrl+F and Ctrl+Shift+F the box pops up and is unselected. Maybe a different shortcut or toolbar button to get the find box, otherwise don't show it?

    Overall, I'm loving Do-more. I was driving my company to another platform based on experience with the old DirectSoft hardware, and I've since made a complete 180 on the Do-more. Keep doing what you're doing!
    Last edited by TheGreatMarklar; 04-15-2019, 01:51 PM. Reason: formatting

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  • BobO
    replied
    Originally posted by ControlsGuy View Post
    What, you think I read the stuff you put on the screen?? There's probably some level in there that will work for me.
    Well...it is at the very end of the list. Which since you aren't dispositioning warnings as they happen, probably has 200 items.

    Leave a comment:


  • BobO
    replied
    Originally posted by BobO View Post
    One thought we've had is to make saving to disk automatic when writing to the PLC, at least optionally. Not sure that would be popular though.
    Originally posted by ControlsGuy View Post
    I don't think I'd want that. I do usually do both at the same time, but two buttons in parallel doesn't seem overly burdensome and I like having the choice. Maybe force an accept, if you do a disk or PLC write, so at least it's not three.
    Originally posted by MikeN View Post
    I think that should be the case. I cant think of any time I would ever want a program in the PLC that I didnt want saved to disk. If I just uploaded to PLC, whatever I uploaded needs to be saved so just do it automatically.
    And here you see the tightrope. I'm a fan of making it an option. Then you gotta figure out what the default should be. Then you gotta figure out how to make sure people know there is an option...which means more clutter...which is another criticism we face. ​​​​​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • ControlsGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by BobO View Post
    You can dismiss warnings for a single block or the entire project or forever...it says that right in the display. Right click on the warning to disposition it.
    What, you think I read the stuff you put on the screen?? There's probably some level in there that will work for me.

    Yeah...we know. There are a couple of issues. One is the project file name is written to the PLC so that if you just connect to the PLC, we prompt you to automatically open the associated project. When you write to disk and change the the filename, that then needs to be written back to the PLC.
    This one I find understandable and don't really mind it.

    The other is instruction IDs and edge bit assignments. Downloading to the PLC forces the reassignment of those in some cases, and that technically changes the program. We know how to make that go away, we just haven't done it yet.
    OK, looking forward to it when you can get to it.

    One thought we've had is to make saving to disk automatic when writing to the PLC, at least optionally. Not sure that would be popular though.
    I don't think I'd want that. I do usually do both at the same time, but two buttons in parallel doesn't seem overly burdensome and I like having the choice. Maybe force an accept, if you do a disk or PLC write, so at least it's not three.

    That is definitely going to get changed. Hitting CTRL-E is just instinctive to me I guess, but if it makes us different than everyone else, it is a problem. One advantage is that we hide edit context stuff when you leave edit mode, thus freeing screen real estate, but I guess that isn't worth the frustration it is causing.
    Ah, that's probably why I don't see the tradeoff. I dislike and disable all edit-mode toolbars anyway, so there's no screen space advantage to me. Being an old TI guy, I do all editing pretty much from the keyboard. There are places where I use the mouse when editing (like if I want a specialty contact, I'll hit F4 and mash the one I want on the dialog), and other places it would be nice, like dragging addresses and whole contacts, but none of those involve loss of real estate. Where it kills me is when it's on and I want to write to an address, I invariably forget and try to do so, then have to cancel, turn off edit mode, try again.....

    Leave a comment:


  • ControlsGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by BobO View Post
    If we didn't show status and compressed the expression display if it were large, it would actually be pretty simple. Feel like the status issue would be a deal breaker though.
    I think I'd probably show as much as the equivalent space for docs on a regular contact, then show the entire expression on a hover. AB actually, in MATH boxes and maybe in free form compares, doesn't try to show the status full-time for each input, but will show individual input statii if you hover over the element. Nice, but not super-necessary. Even though it's there, I don't use it a lot.

    I see why status would be the issue. The PLC is computing the result anyway. Would it help for the PLC to store the results so status can receive them pre-computed?

    Leave a comment:


  • kewakl
    replied
    Originally posted by BobO View Post
    It's a poor answer, I know, but that's how some of that happens.
    And sometimes these things get added in response...
    For every complaint about a prompt or warning, there is frequently a request made due to a user complaint.
    It's a tightrope at times. The most correct answer is to stick fairly close to convention (if there is one) and try to provide options to give everyone what they want.

    ...and then find a way to propagate said options from version to version.
    BobO, I dissected your response with the intent to highlight things that I deal with most days--and say that I agree.
    A significant portion of members here do programming (PC/embedded/plc) and have some of the same issues!
    Owning/adjusting to the issues is a big step up from other vendors that I have used in the past. kudos!

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeN
    replied
    Originally posted by BobO View Post

    The PLC can do that right now. The only reason we haven't done it is status and display becomes complicated. And how elaborate an expression should be allow? Everyone usually shows the simple cases, but the expression there could technically contain the entire contents of a MATH box. Do you leave it a relational contact where there is a left and right side and an operator, or do you reduce it to a single expression contact that uses math bool operators? A single expression contact could use the entire range of MATH instructions, and whatever was left on the stack would resolve to non-zero = TRUE, zero = FALSE. I think it would be cool as crap...but...the status display would require reading every expression input and evaluating the expression to figure out whether to show the contact as on or off.

    If we didn't show status and compressed the expression display if it were large, it would actually be pretty simple. Feel like the status issue would be a deal breaker though.
    Perhaps limit the number of characters that could be written as an expression in a compare contact to 16 characters long? And/or limit to only basic arithmetic (add, subtract, multi, and divide) so users cannot write large math equations there. Anything large would be done in a real math box, compare becomes more flexible but still limited to just making a simple modifier to a memory address at most.

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  • BobO
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeN View Post
    Another dialog box that should be removed is when closing the program, a box shows up asking if you want to save your project to disk, plc, both, or dont save. When I click dont save, yet another box comes up asking me if I want to write changes. I just said I dont want to save anything, why bother with a box asking me a second time if I want to write changes?
    I agree. It's layers. As the disconnect process is happening, there is lower level code that has its own checks. It's a poor answer, I know, but that's how some of that happens.

    And sometimes these things get added in response to a user complaint to us, or ADC tech, or whatever. For every complaint about a prompt or warning, there is frequently a request made due to a user complaint. It's a tightrope at times. The most correct answer is to stick fairly close to convention (if there is one) and try to provide options to give everyone what they want.

    ...and then find a way to propagate said options from version to version.
    Last edited by BobO; 04-15-2019, 09:49 AM.

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  • MikeN
    replied
    Originally posted by BobO View Post
    And comment about the editor...backspace will delete a contact without deleting the wire.
    Hmm. I didn't know that either.
    For me I would prefer delete did not remove power rail as well. While I do sometimes wish to remove a power rail when removing instruction, about 90% of the time I want to keep the power rail there, and if default behavior is remove the rail, I still have to "shift+ctrl" move around and delete vertical moving power rails anyway so it hasnt saved me any time as I am already moving back over that space anyway. It only makes things take more time for me the other 90% of the time when I didnt want to remove the rail. Delete has always been my default key to use when removing an instruction, rather than backspace, as it is closer to my fingers than backspace when in an editor because my fingers are already on the arrow keys moving around

    Another dialog box that should be removed is when closing the program, a box shows up asking if you want to save your project to disk, plc, both, or dont save. When I click dont save, yet another box comes up asking me if I want to write changes. I just said I dont want to save anything, why bother with a box asking me a second time if I want to write changes?

    Originally posted by ControlsGuy View Post
    Here's MY beef: I hate "Edit Mode".
    Also this.


    Originally posted by BobO View Post
    One thought we've had is to make saving to disk automatic when writing to the PLC, at least optionally. Not sure that would be popular though.
    I think that should be the case. I cant think of any time I would ever want a program in the PLC that I didnt want saved to disk. If I just uploaded to PLC, whatever I uploaded needs to be saved so just do it automatically.
    Last edited by MikeN; 04-15-2019, 09:52 AM.

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  • RogerR
    replied
    Originally posted by BobO View Post

    The PLC can do that right now. The only reason we haven't done it is status and display becomes complicated. And how elaborate an expression should be allow? Everyone usually shows the simple cases, but the expression there could technically contain the entire contents of a MATH box. Do you leave it a relational contact where there is a left and right side and an operator, or do you reduce it to a single expression contact that uses math bool operators? A single expression contact could use the entire range of MATH instructions, and whatever was left on the stack would resolve to non-zero = TRUE, zero = FALSE. I think it would be cool as crap...but...the status display would require reading every expression input and evaluating the expression to figure out whether to show the contact as on or off.

    If we didn't show status and compressed the expression display if it were large, it would actually be pretty simple. Feel like the status issue would be a deal breaker though.
    I can see where the display would cause some problems or discussions on the display/status. Had not really considered that aspect before.
    The PLC in monitoring mode is a very visual experience and most likely there are not two programmers who would see this the same way.

    The trade off for not adding in a math box and creating another tag to use in comparative contacts further down the ladder may offset that somewhat.
    The math will be performed either way by the math box at the rung end or by the comparative contact. The math box will also need to write to another numeric tag for use later, which is a bit more overhead.

    Some text in a control or rung comment would suffice for me to describe the logic if the final value for each side of the comparative contact was shown in monitor mode. This would keep the comparative contact the same size as now.
    This would really be the most use when two values are being compared frequently with a changed offset to a value.

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  • BobO
    replied
    Originally posted by Todd Dice View Post
    You can write to the processor by clicking once on the "save to processor" icon (there are no warnings of "are you sure?")
    Without any form of ack from the user? I'm not comfortable with that, at least in run mode. Less of a problem in program mode I guess.

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