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  • #31
    Originally posted by BobO View Post
    One thought we've had is to make saving to disk automatic when writing to the PLC, at least optionally. Not sure that would be popular though.
    Originally posted by ControlsGuy View Post
    I don't think I'd want that. I do usually do both at the same time, but two buttons in parallel doesn't seem overly burdensome and I like having the choice. Maybe force an accept, if you do a disk or PLC write, so at least it's not three.
    Originally posted by MikeN View Post
    I think that should be the case. I cant think of any time I would ever want a program in the PLC that I didnt want saved to disk. If I just uploaded to PLC, whatever I uploaded needs to be saved so just do it automatically.
    And here you see the tightrope. I'm a fan of making it an option. Then you gotta figure out what the default should be. Then you gotta figure out how to make sure people know there is an option...which means more clutter...which is another criticism we face. ​​​​​​​

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ControlsGuy View Post
      What, you think I read the stuff you put on the screen?? There's probably some level in there that will work for me.
      Well...it is at the very end of the list. Which since you aren't dispositioning warnings as they happen, probably has 200 items.

      Comment



      • #33
        Originally posted by MikeN View Post

        I think that should be the case. I cant think of any time I would ever want a program in the PLC that I didn't want saved to disk. If I just uploaded to PLC, whatever I uploaded needs to be saved so just do it automatically.
        I frequently will make changes, push them to the PLC to see how the code works, and if I don't like it or it doesn't work, read from disk rather than trying to manually undo all of it. Please do not auto-save to disk on Write to PLC. Or make it an option for those who want it.


        Other topics:
        1) No more Edit mode, please.
        2) Short math strings in relational contacts would be helpful. No parenthesis, basic math only. I hate having a whole MATH box for D3 = D1*2 just so I can do D3 > D2 somewhere.
        3) 2.5 is good. The new connect/link facility is great, makes it a lot easier to figure out what PLC I'm connecting to when there are several on a network.
        4) Please make it so I can import settings from the previous version when upgrading.
        5) I like the additional functions of the Find command/box, but it is frustrating that, when using the basic Ctrl+F and Ctrl+Shift+F the box pops up and is unselected. Maybe a different shortcut or toolbar button to get the find box, otherwise don't show it?

        Overall, I'm loving Do-more. I was driving my company to another platform based on experience with the old DirectSoft hardware, and I've since made a complete 180 on the Do-more. Keep doing what you're doing!
        Last edited by TheGreatMarklar; 04-15-2019, 01:51 PM. Reason: formatting

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        • #34
          Originally posted by ControlsGuy View Post

          I don't think I'd want that. I do usually do both at the same time, but two buttons in parallel doesn't seem overly burdensome and I like having the choice. Maybe force an accept, if you do a disk or PLC write, so at least it's not three.
          This is why I like MY toolbar arrangement - Accept Save Write are in that order next to each other. But honestly, F8 for accept is so automatic I am thrilled it doesn't do harm when I am in Rockwell software! Some of the combo key shortcuts are too extreme for me as I can't reach them easily, especially wrong-handed (one hand is busy doing something important like holding my laptop.)

          I don't mind Edit Mode so much as that too many Escape keys drops me out of it, which I hate.

          So BobO, when are we going to get "god mode" and a secret level?



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          • #35
            Originally posted by Mike Nash View Post
            So BobO, when are we going to get "god mode" and a secret level?
            Creature comforts and workflow are our current area of focus, and will remain so until we feel like we've put a reasonable space between ourselves and 'quirky'.

            I don't envision some overreaching expert mode vs noob handholding mode, as much as just trying to be more common sense about some stuff and providing options for the more controversial things. It's fine to be different, but it isn't fine for those differences to be distracting. Our goal is to get y'all back focused on solving problems instead of frustrated with tools.

            We have a number of hardware launches over the coming months, so each release will roll out some improvements.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by TheGreatMarklar View Post
              I frequently will make changes, push them to the PLC to see how the code works, and if I don't like it or it doesn't work, read from disk rather than trying to manually undo all of it. Please do not auto-save to disk on Write to PLC. Or make it an option for those who want it.
              At the risk of INCREASING the UI interaction to write an edit, we could have Test Mode like AB. I find though, that the vast majority of writes get kept, so optimizing that path is better than optimizing the path where tested edits get reverted (80/20 rule, or in this case 97/3 rule). I like the way you do it.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by ControlsGuy View Post

                At the risk of INCREASING the UI interaction to write an edit, we could have Test Mode like AB. I find though, that the vast majority of writes get kept, so optimizing that path is better than optimizing the path where tested edits get reverted (80/20 rule, or in this case 97/3 rule). I like the way you do it.
                Ack! I dislike A-B's "Test Edits," as it adds more mouse clicks just so I can move onto editing another rung.

                So, how strong is BobO's tightrope?
                Why worry? If you've done the best you can, worrying won't make it any better

                - Walt Disney

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Todd Dice View Post
                  So, how strong is BobO's tightrope?
                  We've been tugging on that sucker for nearly three decades and its still holding. Pretty stout apparently.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by BobO View Post
                    1. If the SysConfig has been edited, run mode updates are not possible. Writing to the PLC forces a trip to program mode. You probably need to know that.
                    No argument there. This is a hardware change and not simply a logic change. This is how it is handled in AB World, Mitsubishi world, and pretty much same way by everyone else's stuff that I have come across over the years. I understand. And that is not what I am requesting as a feature. I still have my Zilog Z80 development board from the late eighties. That was a classic Semiconductor Ferrari back in them day's. And here I am, complaining about number of WIRELESS mouse clicks that I have to do on software, that was given to me for FREE.

                    But does it still beat HAVING TO LOAD ACCUMULATOR "A", to just to get ball rolling?

                    Jury is still out.

                    But tools are important. For instance, the other day, I went to Home Depot to buy a hammer to fix my deck, fully aware, that it can drive nails to secure my boards. But much to my surprise, little did I know, that this same hammer, can also be used for making Crystal Meth powder, just by simply and gently tapping on to it while it was still in it's rock form.

                    Soooooo, is Home Depot responsible for how it's merchandise was put to use?

                    Originally posted by BobO View Post
                    2. If the SysConfig hasn't been changed, run mode updates are an option, but you may not want to do that for many good reasons. Probably need to be able to be able to offer guidance on that as well.
                    And I think this is where I am not conveying the message clearly. I myself am confusing the definition of "Run Mode" updates vs. "Run mode edits" in the AD world. I believe you are guessing that I want a complete program overhaul sent to the PLC, while the PLC is in run mode. No. I do not want to do RUN MODE UPDATES. I WANT RUN MODE LOGIC EDITS or WRITES OF ONLY WHAT I CHANGED in logic, sent to it. Sorry if I misspoke.

                    I look at this as a simple three step or three choice operation. Correct me if I am wrong.

                    1. Upload - Get from the PLC and update my program with it. I click on this, because I am 100% sure that is EXACTLY what I want and it has been clearly explained to me with a SINGLE LINE of instruction, with a single dialog, should things go wrong, shame on me for not having 20 pus backups.

                    2. Download - Send stuff to PLC. As in send what I have on my laptop to the PLC. Yes. Wipe clean what is on the PLC, and load the new image from the laptop. YES. I Am 100% sure about this. OF COURSE, THIS CAN ONLY HAPPEN IF THE PLC IS IN PROGRAM MODE. Meaning, not done while a system is in production.

                    3. Write to PLC. Just send the LOGIC THAT I JUST CHANGED since going online. Which implies, all things were equal at the PLC end, and PC end, when the connection was made. (No Hardware configuration changes, data table changes etc., are allowed while in this mode. Mode being On-Line Edit and not On-Line and trying to change hardware configurations or map new memory blocks). All I want is the logic that I changed, after going on-line with a PLC, sent to the PLC. After that operation, both the PLC and the PC will be identical.


                    Originally posted by BobO View Post
                    3. Writing the entire retentive memory image to the PLC is a very bad idea in run mode. It may also be a bad idea in program mode and you aren't restoring a system. So should we have a a write program and a write entire project? We had that and people complained. The current dialog was the answer to the disparate write to PLC methods.
                    Again, I think I am being misunderstood. I whole heatedly agree, writing an image should only be under program mode and not under run mode. Ever. I am simply trying to load the image of customer "B" in and wipe out Customer "A" from my desktop development PLC where no slicing knives are attached to any of my sourcing outputs. Three simple operations. Perhaps rewording few functions IN ORDER to remove any ambiguities and avoid Confusion. In other words, END USER REALIZES HE/SHE own the choice you Click On.

                    Here's my dream dialog for D0-More.

                    How About Two Menu buttons called

                    1. Synchronize
                    2. Write to PLC


                    Synchronize dialog.

                    A. Send what you got to the PLC (An image Write)
                    B. Get what is on the PLC and update your lousy program with it.

                    3. Write to PLC. Update just the logic that I hanged since going on-line. LOGIC ONLY.
                    Last edited by skyfox; 04-16-2019, 04:49 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Back in DirectSoft, we had 2 buttons for writing...Write Program, which just did logic, and Write Project, which did everything. People complained it was confusing and the answer was the current single Write.

                      Memory is fuzzy on this, but I think DmD used to present different dialogs based on whether the PLC was is run mode or not, and depending on what was possible based on what had been modified. And again, that was deemed confusing and changed to the current dialog to be less so. One dialog to rule them all.

                      i understand what you want...I think...while coding, just slam stuff into the PLC ASAP with no discussion. Right now that is one mouse click on the Write button and one click on OK...or...SHIFT-F9, arrow left, and SPACEBAR or ENTER. The only way I know how to reduce that any further would be to eliminate the confirmation, which I知 not comfortable with.

                      As for the Synchronize idea, I like that and we致e talked about it before. I知 not sure it reduces anything though. Click sync, then pick PLC to PC vs click Read from PLC, then confirm. Sounds like the same number of clicks.

                      Since I feel like we are already at the safe minimum level of clicks/hot keys for upload and download, I guess I知 still not seeing what you are. Show me exactly (steps to dupe) where you feel like you are doing more than you should need to.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by BobO View Post

                        The PLC can do that right now. The only reason we haven't done it is status and display becomes complicated. And how elaborate an expression should be allow? Everyone usually shows the simple cases, but the expression there could technically contain the entire contents of a MATH box. Do you leave it a relational contact where there is a left and right side and an operator, or do you reduce it to a single expression contact that uses math bool operators? A single expression contact could use the entire range of MATH instructions, and whatever was left on the stack would resolve to non-zero = TRUE, zero = FALSE. I think it would be cool as crap...but...the status display would require reading every expression input and evaluating the expression to figure out whether to show the contact as on or off.

                        If we didn't show status and compressed the expression display if it were large, it would actually be pretty simple. Feel like the status issue would be a deal breaker though.
                        I'm relatively new to ladder programing. The thing I am most frustrated with is the inflexibility of using conditional statements and operators to perform an action. Why not create a MATH Contact that allows the full range of MATH functionality and that returns a Boolean value. By definition, the first status of a NO contact is open until the underlying function is evaluated after the first scan the contact retains its last state until the function is again evaluated. After evaluation, the operation on the right side of the ladder either turns on or it doesn't. Let that be the status indicator. As far as a description, how about "Custom Function".
                        It is up to me to ensure that the conditional and mathematical elements of the function are correct. No hand holding, give programmers some flexibility.
                        Below is an example:

                        This code block terminates when encountering the first "Return" statement.
                        IF condition_1 THEN Return True;
                        ELSIF condition_2 AND contition_3 THEN Return False;
                        ELSIF condition_4 OR condition_5 THEN Return True;
                        ELSE Return False
                        END IF;

                        Pat
                        Last edited by pdavitt; 04-16-2019, 09:30 AM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by BobO View Post
                          Back in DirectSoft, we had 2 buttons for writing...Write Program, which just did logic, and Write Project, which did everything. People complained it was confusing and the answer was the current single Write.

                          Memory is fuzzy on this, but I think DmD used to present different dialogs based on whether the PLC was is run mode or not, and depending on what was possible based on what had been modified. And again, that was deemed confusing and changed to the current dialog to be less so. One dialog to rule them all.

                          i understand what you want...I think...while coding, just slam stuff into the PLC ASAP with no discussion. Right now that is one mouse click on the Write button and one click on OK...or...SHIFT-F9, arrow left, and SPACEBAR or ENTER. The only way I know how to reduce that any further would be to eliminate the confirmation, which I知 not comfortable with.

                          As for the Synchronize idea, I like that and we致e talked about it before. I知 not sure it reduces anything though. Click sync, then pick PLC to PC vs click Read from PLC, then confirm. Sounds like the same number of clicks.

                          Since I feel like we are already at the safe minimum level of clicks/hot keys for upload and download, I guess I知 still not seeing what you are. Show me exactly (steps to dupe) where you feel like you are doing more than you should need to.
                          Perhaps it is not necessarily the number of clicks involved, but the amount of words on each dialog box and the wording of things, or perhaps even the number of options that makes it seem like there is a lot more that needs to be done or that it is more confusing? I work with both Do-More BRX's and Productivity PLCs from AD. I cant really put my finger on it exactly, but something about Do-More just makes it feel like there is a lot more I have to go through or read or buttons to click to save projects or write to PLCs than I do with Productivity. Ill try and figure out more concisely what it is about Do-More that makes me feel this way.

                          I know thats not the most helpful thing. A lot of "maybe this, or that, or possibly that thing over there?" It would be more helpful if we could describe exactly the issue. It seems there are a lot of people with this sort of feeling. But as you said, number of clicks are already reduced quite a bit. So if it isnt that, what causes this feeling among the users? It is probably pretty frustrating for you. In the end it will probably just be some little tweak you do and all of us go "wow, its so amazing now. Just perfect." when all it turned out to be way changing one word. haha
                          Last edited by MikeN; 04-16-2019, 09:42 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by pdavitt View Post

                            I'm relatively new to ladder programing. The thing I am most frustrated with is the inflexibility of using conditional statements and operators to perform an action. Why not create a MATH Contact that allows the full range of MATH functionality and that returns a Boolean value. By definition, the status of a NO contact is open until the underlying function is evaluated. After evaluation, the operation on the right side of the ladder either turns on or it doesn't. Let that be the status indicator. As far as a description, how about "Custom Function".
                            It is up to me to ensure that the conditional and mathematical elements of the function are correct. No hand holding, give programmers some flexibility.
                            Below is an example:

                            This code block terminates when encountering the first "Return" statement.
                            IF condition_1 THEN Return True;
                            ELSIF condition_2 AND contition_3 THEN Return False;
                            ELSIF condition_4 OR condition_5 THEN Return True;
                            ELSE Return False
                            END IF;

                            Pat
                            That sounds more like Structured Text (ST) that some PLCs support as a programming language. Do-more's math infrastructure isn't quite ST, but does have the ability to do much of same. What we are proposing is actually exactly what you are asking for (an expression contact), but we did have some concerns about how to display the status of the boolean result. Franji1 (another Host developer) came up with a great idea to work around that, and we are evaluating the effort to add an Expression Contact (-|E|-) soon. If it isn't bad, maybe even next release.

                            BTW, the Do-more MATH to do what you described is this: IF(condition_1, 1, IF(condition_2 && condition_3, 0, condition_4 || condition_5))

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by BobO View Post

                              That sounds more like Structured Text (ST) that some PLCs support as a programming language. Do-more's math infrastructure isn't quite ST, but does have the ability to do much of same. What we are proposing is actually exactly what you are asking for (an expression contact), but we did have some concerns about how to display the status of the boolean result. Franji1 (another Host developer) came up with a great idea to work around that, and we are evaluating the effort to add an Expression Contact (-|E|-) soon. If it isn't bad, maybe even next release.

                              BTW, the Do-more MATH to do what you described is this: IF(condition_1, 1, IF(condition_2 && condition_3, 0, condition_4 || condition_5))
                              Great about the Expression Contact. I'm currently using the MATH IF statement to populate a MHR register. See you snuck a few C operators into the MATH functionality.

                              Pat

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Todd Dice View Post
                                Ack! I dislike A-B's "Test Edits," as it adds more mouse clicks just so I can move onto editing another rung.
                                Yeah, I tend to feel the same way (note that AB added the God Mode button to the ControlLogix so many must feel the same), and I definitely wasn't advocating that as the best solution. Was just mentioning ways other PLC companies have addressed this, so people can talk about what they like, what they don't, and the Powers That Be can steal any good ideas, compromise, combine, etc.

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