Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is a Cmore the same as a thin server????

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts


  • Is a Cmore the same as a thin server????

    I posted this in the PLC area and someone directed me to this area of the forum. They said they had never used it as such but they thought a Cmore would do what I require. Can someone please give me some advice.

    Original message:

    Admittedly, I am an old time panel builder. Most of what I do is using relays since that is what my clients like (as one of them last told me, I don't want any of that computer cr##).

    Anyway, I have used PLC's in jobs several times with great success. Latter logic makes complete sense.

    I have also written my own web page and I have a friend who does this for a living so that is easy enough.

    I just had a client call me and said he needs a panel, plc controlled that he can access through the web.

    He wants to be able to turn 10 pumps on and off ... have the web site show if they are on or off ... check the flow on two flow meters (4-20 mA) instantaneous read only, not total functions .... have the computer call up if the flow drops below a certain rate ... and have the plc totalize the flow and send an e-mail out each morning saying what yesterdays total flow was.

    So I started reading. The plc part is simple. I am still trying to decide between a touch screen and old fashion HOA switches.

    The problem is how to tie a web site into the PLC.

    I keep reading about a thin server.

    Is this just a computer in the control panel with software running on it or is it some kind of embedded module or is there a module you can buy for a PLC with this built into it or ??????

    The individual parts seem simple enough ... Just need to figure out how this all ties in together.

    Thanks so much ...... Mike


  • #2
    I don't want any of that computer cr##

    That computer cr## is ok in my phone, my car, my microwave...
    just dont want any in my production equipment!

    smh

    Comment



    • #3
      A lot of the panels I do are for environmental pumping and treatment systems. Most are located at remote sites. The guys who install and maintain these sites have a "basic" knowledge of electricity. By building simple panels, I can walk them thought repair work on the phone. I will ask questions ... have them take readings with a meter and usually we are up and running in a short time.

      None of them would even know were to begin if I told them to plug a computer in ... bring up a program and start looking around.

      I also over rate all my components so they have a long long long life.

      Thus, I have clients that I built panels for in the 90's still coming back to me.

      That said, sometimes like in this case, they must build to specification.

      This panel is to replace on that is in the field and just never worked right .... not my panel.

      I guess they have tried for a year now and given up.

      So I am being asked to replace it.

      I just don't do a lot of these. I bet the last time I tied a HMI to a PLC was 10 plus years ago.

      i was not even sure if I should use a HMI or some other local server or ????

      This is why I need advice on how to go about doing it .... not a how too lesson but just the hardware recommended.

      Thanks so much .... Mike

      Comment



      • #4
        You cannot account for 'logic.'
        About 10 years ago I worked at a place that was retrofitting panels from a muni water treatment facility.
        The original panels were 3/4" (19mm) plywood.
        The 'logic' was that lightning would not destroy the controls if the back panel was not conductive.
        The new panels were metal.

        Comment



        • #5
          I'm seeing a PLC ( Your Choice ) Connected to a C-More HMI, and Sitting on the Net somehow..

          The C-more can give a General overview Screen, that has all the Flow Reading ( or totals if you like ) , and have PLC Override of Functions.. The C-more in Remote Function Mode, will act just like a human is on Site Pushing the buttons..

          The C-More Can E-Mail out Daily Totals, and E-mail or text to a phone when some Emergency happens.. It's all handled in the Event manager..

          My Wasteplant is running on A VPN Connected E-Net set up, and I can Check and Do all the things from Home I can do standing in front of the C-more Screen..

          The Troubleshooting aspect of it can get creative.. Sometimes having the C-more Showing you what Contactor should be in, and What Motor should be running is a benifit..

          Cap

          Comment



          • #6
            Exactly the info I am looking for ... had to get this out of the web site or manual.

            I don't think anyone will be turning things off and on .... though I would want that capability.

            I think it will be more of the city engineer looking at the panel every so often just to see if everything is up and running.

            Really, the daily and emergency e-mail should take care of alerting someone if there is a problem.

            Do you know if you can set it up like a server so you can just use any web browser or does it need to be VPN?

            I actually think I would prefer VPN to make it more secure but I will have to ask the client what they want.

            Thanks ..... Mike

            Comment



            • #7
              You'll want one of these bad boys.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=sd0R-hysbKw

              Comment



              • #8
                xtal_01

                Here is a Brief Discription of the Waste System presently..

                Click image for larger version

Name:	Wis2 Main Screen.jpg
Views:	27
Size:	135.8 KB
ID:	117862

                This is the Screen as seen by the Operator..

                It has Totals and History graphs.. Plus what is running.. If Something is in Error, a BIG Red X Drops through the Device.. So when you glance at it, it shows..

                Presently this Screen does not E-mail, as the Security Software for the Facility does not like it.. However I have this same screen working somewhere else in the Facility, and I get regular E-Mails from it at 6:am each day..

                Next is a Control Screen that is accessable after Logging in ( Log in Button Bottom Left )

                Click image for larger version

Name:	FFR Control page.jpg
Views:	27
Size:	138.9 KB
ID:	117863
                This has particular information needed to change for the FFR and EQ portion of the Wasteplant.. All of the Tabular Data is changeable to set levels where you want.. Just Touch the Number and a 10 Key opens up to allow you to change it.. also some of the Recycled water distrobution is covered here.. The 'Sq Boxes with Auto in them', are my version of hand Off Auto Buttons.. you can control them on this screen.. also Touch Control..

                There are other screens, and also 'MASTER HAND OFF AUTO' Screens.. as Follows..

                Click image for larger version

Name:	Button 1-32 Page.jpg
Views:	27
Size:	181.8 KB
ID:	117864

                This is my 'MASTER SHEET' of hand off auto Buttons.. It accesable from the C-More pannel, so if you know the Pump/Device you want to place in hand you can do it from here.. If the 'Button' does not have a Name, it not been assigned yet..
                The Upper Right Number is the 'Software point' for the button.. I Started with only 32 points, but when upgrading the Plant I was forced to blow it to 64 Points.. I have another page that has points 33-64..

                This is by No Means the ONLY way to do this.. But I hope this helps in the Understanding of Touch Screen Options..

                Cap
                Attached Files

                Comment



                • #9
                  It does help a lot .... thanks so much!

                  I actually was not thinking of the Cmore because of the touch screen feature but really as the server to host the web page for the remote operation and notification.

                  I think this is exactly what I am looking for. The touch screen will give me a lot less wiring!

                  Just FYI ... my first job when I moved to SC from outside Buffalo back in the 90's was with a company that packaged Roots blowers. We did a lot of water treatment plants.

                  Thanks so very much for all the advice and the examples !!!!!!!!!!!

                  Mike

                  Comment



                  • #10
                    So, I downloaded the software and did some playing.

                    Most of it makes complete sense (thank goodness).

                    One thing still confuses me ... how (if) I can totalize a flow and send it out in an e-mail each day.

                    My best guess is that since there is data logging capability, I can lets say take log 1 reading per hour ( lets say 20 gal per min flow .... get the value from the PLC that is taking in a 4-20 mA signal).

                    I see there is a calculator function .... I could then take 20 gal/min multiply it by 60 min/hour and store the value of 1200 gal / hour on the SD card?

                    Then take the 24 values and add them together and again store this number?

                    Tell the e-mail system in the Cmore to send out this number (which will be the total gallons of flow in the plast 24 hours).

                    Finally, clear these numbers and start logging again.

                    Do I have this correct? Is the Cmore capable of doing this????? Or am I way off track and the totalizing need to be done by the PLC ... or do I buy a totalizing stand alone meter and have the Cmore or PLC request a total value once a day and e-mail it ??????

                    Thanks ..... Mike

                    Comment



                    • #11
                      Hmmmm ...... help?

                      OK, so I am still a bit confused as to how I do the totalizing of the two flow controllers ... but I have a new problem (or at least an issue I need explained).

                      I called the tech support.

                      They said (as mentioned above) that to do remote control, I need to go VPN.

                      They told me I need to purchase one of their VPN routers.

                      Now I am a bit confused ... so does the PLC and the Cmore plug into the VPN router ... and that plugs into the standard router/modem that the provider supplies me with?

                      Is the VPN router more or less an interpenetrator that goes between the HMI and the modem?

                      What program do you use (or how do you) access the VPN ?

                      Thanks again .... Mike

                      Comment



                      • #12
                        The CMore when set up as a web server will provide the screen to a "web page" located on the IP address and port you have specified.
                        You *could* port forward in the router at the location this machine will be so that when someone goes to that locations public IP on the port number you specified they will see the CMore, and hopefully you also made a login page for it so they have to log in to do anything.
                        That is a way it *can* be done, but not the best way or right way. But it is the cheapest way.
                        The best way is to use a VPN located within a router. If the router at the site can run a VPN server then you can do that, if it cannot then you will need another device to host the VPN server. The StridelinkVPN's can be used to do this.
                        The VPN is basically a secure connection between whoever is logging in and the network this HMI will be on. You use whatever software is supposed to be used for the VPN, which I think the Stridelink comes with software.
                        Basically you log in to the VPN, and then open up your web browser and browse to the local IP of the HMI. So you log in once on the VPN, and once on the HMI. These should be different usernames and passwords. You can make a shortcut on a laptop or workstation that is being used to log on so that you can just click it to launch the web browser with the IP you want.
                        If you use a StridelinkVPN router behind another router, the router between the machine and the internet will need to port forward traffic from the public IP to the stridelink so that traffic goes through properly.

                        Comment



                        • #13
                          One thing still confuses me ... how (if) I can totalize a flow and send it out in an e-mail each day.

                          My best guess is that since there is data logging capability, I can lets say take log 1 reading per hour ( lets say 20 gal per min flow .... get the value from the PLC that is taking in a 4-20 mA signal).

                          I see there is a calculator function .... I could then take 20 gal/min multiply it by 60 min/hour and store the value of 1200 gal / hour on the SD card?

                          Then take the 24 values and add them together and again store this number?

                          Tell the e-mail system in the Cmore to send out this number (which will be the total gallons of flow in the plast 24 hours).

                          Finally, clear these numbers and start logging again.



                          Thanks ..... Mike
                          I like a better accuracy of my Totaled Number.. I do the Totalising in the PLC.. Lets say you have a Flow meter that will do 0-160 GPM.. Take a reading every one Second, ( use a One Second One Shot to get this to read ONLY one Scann per Second ) Divide that number you rgot from the Flow meter by 60, and that gives you the Gallons per second.. Now take this number and add it to a running totalizer in the PLC.. This number is cleared every 24 Hours.. at Midnight or 6am.. by the E-mail Routine that sends the E-mail total.. I do 6AM, as that is the Start of my processing day.. everything else that comes in Before 6 AM is the Cleanup of the previous Days run.. Your choice as to when you do it..

                          So you totalize every second ( I use a Real Number, Floating Point Number Makes the math Simplier ).. this number is Stored and Calculated in the PLC.. Then is Displayed in the touchscreen for humans to see...

                          Then when you read the Number out in the E-mail Routine in the Touchscreen ( Event Manager time request event ), the Screen Sets a Flag ( a Bit ) that will tell the PLC to Clear the Total back to zero.. then the PLC will unset the bit and the process waits till the next 24 Hours to do it all over again.. I think the Event manager can also do the Clearing if that makes things easy

                          Cap




                          Comment



                          • #14
                            YOU GUYS ARE INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

                            MikeN - I just did a bunch of reading on port forwarding. Seems straight forward. The I found something that might make my life even easier! Every modem I have had, has a router built in. I just found out I can turn off the router (and I am guessing I can for most units). This will make the unit into a simple modem that I can plug directly into the VPN router without having to worry about port forwarding.

                            Cap - Awesome! I have been spoiled up till now. I have used flow meters in the past but they all had instantaneous as well as a totalizer built in. Having the PLC do the totalising makes more sense. I have been playing with the Cmore demo software ... now I will download the PLC software and do some playing with it.

                            I really appreciate all the advice! This project is outside of what I normally do but they have now asked me three times to quote it. I guess in the past two years, they have had other panels built like this one and both have failed. They now have a person driving out twice a day to check the system, just to make sure it is running and to write down the flows. I guess it is getting expensive to do this and they have given up on the original vendors being able to get these panels working. Since panels I built them back in the 90's are still up and running, I guess they figured they would give me a try.

                            Just FYI .... I am a machinist by trade and then went back to a three year college (we had them in Canada back in the 80's along with 13 grades) for mechanical engineering technology. I did a lot of odd things for CADD (very very early with light pens off a main frame) for John Deere (they just made the factory where I worked into a giant field) to instrumentation for INCO. I moved to SC back in the 90's. Worked for an air compressor packaging company (Atlas Copco and Roots Dresser). Started building simple control panels for them. They closed after 5 years and Westinghouse Nuclear was looking for contractors to do Mechanical / instrumentation work. So I started my own business. They said I could have a 6 month "trial" .... I stayed for 13 years (10 on my own then they hired me). I tell everyone, I am not smart, I just am good at learning on the fly. Anyway, I met a woman in VT. She was paralyzed from the shoulders down in a diving accident when she was 12. She has a job up here and her health insurance is here ... so I quit my job and moved back north to VT. Housing is expensive here to I just spent 5 years building our own house. I even built an elevator out of an the mast and hydraulics of an old forklift ($40K to purchase one .. I have $2K in my project). I work out of the house so I can do her care every 4 hours (still have not finished the workshop) building panels, making custom cable sets, welding .... doing almost anything that pays the mortgage.

                            I have attached a picture of a typical panel I built (need to update my e-stop buttons .... need yellow ring). Most are simple like this ... think the record is 28 relays (and I really tried to convince him to put a PLC in). Most are just to interlock machinery and monitor tank levels.

                            Thanks so much again .... Mike

                            Click image for larger version

Name:	P1130950.JPG
Views:	59
Size:	106.4 KB
ID:	117910Click image for larger version

Name:	P1140010.JPG
Views:	27
Size:	114.0 KB
ID:	117911

                            Comment



                            • #15
                              Originally posted by xtal_01 View Post
                              MikeN - I just did a bunch of reading on port forwarding. Seems straight forward. The I found something that might make my life even easier! Every modem I have had, has a router built in. I just found out I can turn off the router (and I am guessing I can for most units). This will make the unit into a simple modem that I can plug directly into the VPN router without having to worry about port forwarding.

                              If nothing at all connects to that other router besides your new router with VPN capability then that would be fine.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X