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  • Viewmarq mortality

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    Three (and possibly one more unaccounted for) have failed in two years.
    Anyone else having this issue? Is there anything that we can do locally to minimize this failure?
    Do I want to buy another $600 paperweight?

    These are not on my projects, so If you have questions, it may take some time to get enough info to respond in an intelligent manner.
    I do know that they are indoors, in a relatively well maintained environment, suspended about 10 feet from the floor, powered by 120VAC, communicated to via a CLICK.
    At this time, I cannot be sure of comms protocol - or usage/frequency of read/write.
    Near TiG welders. The TiGs are controlled by X-Y step or servo (depending on table) controls.

    I do have experience with one MD4-0212T. It was eventually placed into a project after being on the shelf for some time. When powered, it would not communicate via ethernet - and was scrapped.
    I retrieved it from e-waste, obtained a material disposition and took it home. After disassembly, I found that the mounting screws for the comms card were not installed, and the comms card had become disconnected from the display mainboard. After I reconnected the comms card, the display worked as expected.


    I think that the following are Serial Numbers - the labels does NOT indicate serial number.

    16Z06F007A3
    17210010A3
    17Y14F015A3


  • #2
    Looks like you have already identified the possible issue as being the TIG welders. Welders throw off a lot of RF, TIG more so than most. It is possible that the grounding, or shielding of the comms or power is not quite good enough to protect the unit from that RF energy.
    If you have an urgent issue, please contact AutomationDirect's Technical Support team.

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    • #3
      Just knowing how voltage works, I would imagine that a welder turning on would create a sag in the voltage that could be causing issues with the ViewMarqs. They may also cause a spike when they stop drawing power for a weld but Im not positive on that.

      According to info I see posted on google searches, welders also put out a lot of EMI, and you should have filters on power lines near the welders and/or possibly a better grounding system for the welders:
      Generally, this can be fixed by a much more conscientious grounding regimen. The NEC rules on grounding are for protection of equipment and personnel from fire and accidents, NOT from common mode noise. If all someone did was the bare minimum per the NEC, it's really easy for common mode noise to sneak into a system from welders. That can also be the result of a good system gone bad over time, i.e. corroded terminations, cut or missing EGCs, etc. Start there.
      The opening and closing of electric motor starters or the use of arc welders and furnace igniters can induce these surges. When the conductors carrying these surge currents are in proximity to conductors of signaling or data circuits, induced voltages will be generated within these circuits. The result is the introduction of electrical noise and loop currents.

      You may be able to get some sort of power meter with small logging capability to see these voltage issues. Unfortunately the AD ones have an update interval of 1 second so you arent going to see anything on them except a slow average which doesnt help you.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Do-more PE View Post
        Looks like you have already identified the possible issue as being the TIG welders. Welders throw off a lot of RF, TIG more so than most. It is possible that the grounding, or shielding of the comms or power is not quite good enough to protect the unit from that RF energy.
        Yes. Thank you. I am interested in any mitigation techniques.
        I am not sure that the power cabling is shielded. If ethernet, it is probably not shielded. If 232/485, then the shielding is the drain and metallized foil.
        So, it seems that we need to look there.

        I reopened one failed unit. I located a LM3485MM Buck regulator chip (U7) with visible damage.
        Another tech opened this unit earlier and sourced replacement chips - however we do not have any SMD rework stations.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by MikeN View Post
          Just knowing how voltage works, I would imagine that a welder turning on would create a sag in the voltage that could be causing issues with the ViewMarqs. They may also cause a spike when they stop drawing power for a weld but Im not positive on that.

          As mentioned earlier, this is not my project.
          I do not (yet) know if the Viewmarqs are powered separately from the weld controllers.
          I can investigate as time permits.
          Last edited by kewakl; 10-08-2019, 10:11 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by kewakl View Post

            however we do not have any SMD rework stations.

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            I've successfully Replaced Memory chips with Just an Old Weller Temp Controlled Soldaring Station, and a Bunch of Solder Wick..

            Cut the Legs off the Old Chip.. usually use an Exacto Knife like a Saw.. Use Brake Cleaner Spray to Remove the Conformal Coating.. and then Remove the Chip Body.. Use the Solder Station to Remove the Leg Remnants..

            Use the brake Cleaner to Clean up the Board.. Tin the Pads on the Board with Solder.. Place the Chip ( ORENTATION CHECK ).. and then Solder Each Leg By itself..

            Re-Spray with Cleaner, and Check it Out..

            I do this on Car Engine Controllers that Need new Key Registration Chips for Lost Master Keys ( Mid 2,000 MY Toyota Celica's ) Just as a hobby for Car Club Guys..

            Cap

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            • #7
              Cap The boss man is working on this now. Weller WES51 and assorted tools/supplies.
              We may remove to two larger lytics for access.

              Thanks.

              Just in case, we will be ordering replacements for Q4 - as soon as we can get a good xref on 618N pfet transistor.
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              This is a pic of the supply for the other display row. Q2 of this pic corresponds to Q4 of the other pic


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              • #8
                Cursory exam indicates:
                The weld stations are powered from 208 3.
                Two weld controllers per station. They can both run at the same time - depending on the operator.
                The weld controllers (Miller MaxStar 200/210) are powered directly from this 3.
                The PLC and Viewmarq are powered from 120VAC derived from this same 3.

                The Viewmarq is powered directly from a pair of receptacles (208 3 and 120) using SJOOW cable. (I dislike SJ-- anything cable)
                Comms is Ethernet - CAT6.

                Another member here PM'ed me about some filtering equipment that we will look into.

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                • #9
                  It's the RF Energy Kick of the Start/Stop of the Arc, that can cause Large Voltage Spikes, in SMALL circuits.. It's likely not coming through the Power Wires, it's induced in the Comm Lines acting as Antenna .. and the small circuits go.. POOF..

                  Ground the Shield only on ONE end..

                  Cap

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                  • #10
                    You could look at putting one of these in the panel for each welding station, after the fuses and just before the controller:
                    https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...lters/kmf3100a

                    That filters out a lot of common mode RF noise hat it seems welders produce.



                    edit:
                    Are the comm lines to the viewmarq run in metal conduit or plastic?
                    What about the power wires to the viewmarq? Sounds almost like it is just an "extension cord cable" wired in at the viewmarq end and no conduit?

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                    • #11
                      Comms is ethernet cat6 'cabling.'
                      i say cabling because the connectors are surely not cat6 compliant-most likely cat5-ez. Aint got time for that headache if it doesnt require cat6 end-to-end.
                      i hope the ethernet port in viewmarq has a minimal amount of magnetics. Haven't looked into that.
                      no. Neither Ethernet nor power is in any conduit.

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                      • #12
                        These Ethernet cables are decently cheap and have two layers of good shielding in them:
                        https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=5901

                        Havent had an issue yet with them from interference and one of my cables is spiral wrapped around an unshielded 480v 3, 30A power line to a machine. Using higher shielded cables like that may be something worth trying.
                        On the Viewmarq end, dont connect the connector to ground in the viewmarq, and do make sure the ethernet panel mount connector on the PLC end of things is grounded. That will ensure noise is drained away into the main panel ground area on the shielded cables.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MikeN View Post
                          These Ethernet cables are decently cheap and have two layers of good shielding in them:
                          https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=5901

                          Havent had an issue yet with them from interference and one of my cables is spiral wrapped around an unshielded 480v 3, 30A power line to a machine. Using higher shielded cables like that may be something worth trying.
                          On the Viewmarq end, dont connect the connector to ground in the viewmarq, and do make sure the ethernet panel mount connector on the PLC end of things is grounded. That will ensure noise is drained away into the main panel ground area on the shielded cables.
                          Looks like something worth trying. I will have to identify how the cable exits the PLC enclosure - to determine how to ground that end.
                          I don't know if the Viewmarq's ethernet connector is grounded - it does have a metal shell.

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                          • #14
                            I don't have anything to add regarding the possible failure scenario. But, I would at the very least pull it off of 120v power and feed it from a 24vdc wall wart for isolation.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Brandon_ View Post
                              I don't have anything to add regarding the possible failure scenario. But, I would at the very least pull it off of 120v power and feed it from a 24vdc wall wart for isolation.
                              That seems reasonable. I am making a mock-up using a CLICK power supply mounted to the rear of the Viewmarq
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